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  • #31
    Re: Mirror and Palpation Tests

    kran,

    >OK, got better understanding now. After gains from ligs are exausted, and later after some gains from work on tunica, there is new potential for ligs gains so that means "new" inner shaft 2 forms so it can be exposed out again, is that right?<

    I think you understand. You exhaust gains from lig stretch, which means the exit point is lower, and the ligs much longer. This means effective stretch can be placed on inner penis 1 and 2.

    As the tunica of the inner penis is stretched and gains made, the effective shaft/lig attachment point is moved outward, effectively retightening the ligs somewhat. The ligs once again tend to be able to take more of the hanging stress, at increasingly upper angles.

    As inner penis becomes longer, LOT is effectively raised. This has been reported many times by guys working only the upper angles.

    >If so then can gains from ligs be unlimited too as well as gains from tunica stretching?<

    Well, this would be predicated on the assumption that a particular guy's inner tunica length increases. It is the increase in inner tunica that provides new potential for gains from lig stretch.

    Bigger

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: Mirror and Palpation Tests

      Bib,

      What happens in a case where there is a discrepancy between the LOT test and palpatation test. For instance, I've got roughly 2.5 inches of inner shaft that I can "feel" between the skin exit point down to the pubic bone. This would indicate very good lig potential, however when I do the LOT test its at about 7. What can be the cause of the discrepancy? If I had a pic I would send it to you so you can see with the mirror test what i'm talking about but unfortunately the best I can do without a camera is describing through typed word. I haven't had a chance to condition my soft tissues yet to hang enough weight at BTC to cause fatigue so in time I will find out but what is your opinion on this?? Should I still try BTC or SD or switch to upper angles? Thanks for all your help!

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: Mirror and Palpation Tests

        Oz,

        >What happens in a case where there is a discrepancy between the LOT test and palpatation test. For instance, I've got roughly 2.5 inches of inner shaft that I can "feel" between the skin exit point down to the pubic bone. This would indicate very good lig potential, however when I do the LOT test its at about 7.<

        Offhand, I would say go with the palpation test result. This is a direct measurement, and if you are sure of what you are feeling, finding the bottom of the pubic bone, then it should be more accurate.

        >What can be the cause of the discrepancy?<

        I really have no idea without more information. The only way that inner penis is being held back and up is by the ligs and other minor connective tissue. If it is "in", the only place for it to go is up along the front face of the pubic bone, held by the ligs. When the angle of stretch gets low enough, these ligs will interrupt the kegal tugback from the inner tunica.

        Now, if you are very overweight, you may be overestimating the amount of inner penis you can expose. IOW, what you palpate now as "inner penis" may simply be covered with fat pad, and no amount of lower angle hanging will pull it out of the fat pad. Losing weight would expose it though.

        If your LOT is 7, you should be able to palpate the ligs, and feel what the situation is. Just stretch at that 7 o'clock angle, and you should be able to palpate the ligs in a taught condition, if that is where they are interrupting the kegal tugback. Move up the angle of stretch a bit, and they should loosen.

        Next, an LOT of 7 does not mean you are bereft of potential for gains from lig stretch. That occurs about straight down, or 6.

        Finally, you may not be accurate concerning your clock. Each hour on the clock represents 30 degrees of stretch angle. Others have recommended standing up straight next to a wall, with a light behind the shaft, casting a "shaft shadow" on the wall. Perhaps a bit easier to make a good determination of the angle. Also be sure that you are noting the LOT as the first indication of loss of tugback. You want to know the first instance of when the ligs engage.

        >I haven't had a chance to condition my soft tissues yet to hang enough weight at BTC to cause fatigue so in time I will find out but what is your opinion on this?? Should I still try BTC or SD or switch to upper angles? Thanks for all your help!<

        Yes, I would be very interested in the conclusions you draw over time. How things develop and what you determine.

        Even with an LOT of 7, it does not hurt to learn to hang at the lower angles, and to stretch out minor connective tissue, and realize whatever gains are possible from lig stretch. This will only help you when you switch to upper angle work, with and without a fulcrum, allowing more stress to go to the inner tunica without lig interference.

        Coupled with the palpation test results, you may do very well at the lower angles. I recommend continuing BTC.

        Bigger

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: Mirror and Palpation Tests

          Bib,

          >Offhand, I would say go with the palpation test result. This is a direct measurement, and if you are sure of what you are feeling, finding the bottom of the pubic bone, then it should be more accurate.<

          I agree. I can definetely palpate through scrotal skin to the "inner penis" and from feeling it, i can tell it travels down almost vertically with a very slight incline and then it reaches a curve and around there is where I can feel the pubic bone. IF I keep palpating further in, I feel something that feels totally different.I believe its the prostrate.

          >Now, if you are very overweight, you may be overestimating the amount of inner penis you can expose. IOW, what you palpate now as "inner penis" may simply be covered with fat pad, and no amount of lower angle hanging will pull it out of the fat pad. Losing weight would expose it though.<

          I'm not overweight. A pretty skinny guy. I"m 5'10 and 145lbs. However for some damn reason I've got a fat pad thats slightly more than 1 in (i've measured several times to be correct). So If I measure 2.5 inches of inner penis, then its more likely just around 1.5 in (2.5 inner penis - 1 inch fat pad) that I could possibly gain by lig strech??

          >If your LOT is 7, you should be able to palpate the ligs, and feel what the situation is. Just stretch at that 7 o'clock angle, and you should be able to palpate the ligs in a taught condition, if that is where they are interrupting the kegal tugback. Move up the angle of stretch a bit, and they should loosen.<

          I've done this and to be honest I'm having a hard time determining if they are loose or tight. I have performed your skin pinch test so I'm familiar with what to do in terms of finding the variable that is taking the stress load but in this case I just can't seem to tell what constitues loose or tight. My ligs feel like strings and Im able to pluck or pull these strings with my thumb and forefinger outwards more at upper anges and at lower angles I'm still able to pluck/pull them but not as much outwards. I hope i'm on track.

          >Next, an LOT of 7 does not mean you are bereft of potential for gains from lig stretch. That occurs about straight down, or 6.<

          Good to know. Always thought 7 was indicative of very little potential.

          >Finally, you may not be accurate concerning your clock. Each hour on the clock represents 30 degrees of stretch angle. Others have recommended standing up straight next to a wall, with a light behind the shaft, casting a "shaft shadow" on the wall. Perhaps a bit easier to make a good determination of the angle. Also be sure that you are noting the LOT as the first indication of loss of tugback. You want to know the first instance of when the ligs engage.<

          You're right. I tried that and gives me a slightly more accurate reading but not much different. I would guess 7:30 ish.

          >Even with an LOT of 7, it does not hurt to learn to hang at the lower angles, and to stretch out minor connective tissue, and realize whatever gains are possible from lig stretch. This will only help you when you switch to upper angle work, with and without a fulcrum, allowing more stress to go to the inner tunica without lig interference.<

          I definetely plan on continuing BTC and will keep the forum posted on progress. I'm very interested to know myself and would love to get the exit point lowered so I can achieve more of a hung look.

          >Coupled with the palpation test results, you may do very well at the lower angles. I recommend continuing BTC.<

          I definetely agree. Thank you for taking the time to help as you always do BIB. Makes the journey a lot easier!

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: Mirror and Palpation Tests

            Oz,

            >I agree. I can definetely palpate through scrotal skin to the "inner penis" and from feeling it, i can tell it travels down almost vertically with a very slight incline and then it reaches a curve and around there is where I can feel the pubic bone. IF I keep palpating further in, I feel something that feels totally different.I believe its the prostrate.<

            I assume you mean softer tissue? If so, then it sounds like you are right on.

            >I'm not overweight. A pretty skinny guy. I"m 5'10 and 145lbs. However for some damn reason I've got a fat pad thats slightly more than 1 in (i've measured several times to be correct). So If I measure 2.5 inches of inner penis, then its more likely just around 1.5 in (2.5 inner penis - 1 inch fat pad) that I could possibly gain by lig strech??<

            That sound much closer, 1.5 inches vs 7:30. I would never say that you can realize all 1.5 inches in gains from lig stretch. This is a bit complicated. First, you may realize MORE than 1.5 inches, because at the same time working on ligs at the lower angles, you may gain in outer tunica. So that would be more.

            But at the same time, I am not sure a guy could ever realize every mm possible from lig stretch. Close, but not all. This is because sooner or later, you will have stretched the ligs as much as possible, given the most severe possible angle. The internal anchor points would begin resisting the stress along with the ligs, etc. I have not investigated this as much as I would like.

            >I've done this and to be honest I'm having a hard time determining if they are loose or tight. I have performed your skin pinch test so I'm familiar with what to do in terms of finding the variable that is taking the stress load but in this case I just can't seem to tell what constitues loose or tight. My ligs feel like strings and Im able to pluck or pull these strings with my thumb and forefinger outwards more at upper anges and at lower angles I'm still able to pluck/pull them but not as much outwards. I hope i'm on track.<

            If you can, try plucking the ligs with the hanger and weight on. This should make it easier. Also, this is not a one time deal. Over time, you will palpate and discover many things. You are a scientific guy, so you will experiment, and soon know exactly how you are put together, and the best way to attack your resistant tissues.

            >Good to know. Always thought 7 was indicative of very little potential.<

            If you can picture this in your mind: Penis stretched straight downward at 6. Ligs on top straight downward also. Kegal, and the head pulls back strongly. The ligs are not preventing the kegal energy from traveling all the way down the shaft. That means that the entire shaft is at or very near the bottom of the pubic bone, along that axis.

            Your ligs are engaging a full 45 degrees above that point.

            >I definetely plan on continuing BTC and will keep the forum posted on progress. I'm very interested to know myself and would love to get the exit point lowered so I can achieve more of a hung look.<

            That is a definite plus.

            Thanks,

            Bigger

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: Mirror and Palpation Tests

              Bib,

              Thanks again for all your help. In the future If I have any hanging inquires I'll try to post pics to make the job a lot easier. Thanks again.

              Ozzy

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: Mirror and Palpation Tests

                Oz,

                >Thanks again for all your help. In the future If I have any hanging inquires I'll try to post pics to make the job a lot easier<

                That will be great.

                Thanks,

                Bigger

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: Mirror and Palpation Tests

                  Bib, what are your thoughts for guys with a bigger gut or fat pad that have difficulty accurately judging the mirror test? Do you think attaching the hanger with a light weight just to stretch things out for the mirror test will give them an accurate picture to judge or will it negatively alter the test result?

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: Mirror and Palpation Tests

                    RB,

                    >Bib, what are your thoughts for guys with a bigger gut or fat pad that have difficulty accurately judging the mirror test? Do you think attaching the hanger with a light weight just to stretch things out for the mirror test will give them an accurate picture to judge or will it negatively alter the test result?<

                    Hanging a weight would defeat the purpose.

                    That is one of the good things about that test. It does not matter much about body condition, within reason. Just follow the creases down where the legs attach to the body. That should be about the bottom of the pubic bone, whether a guy is fat or thin. Then see where the shaft exit point is in relation to the bottom of the pubic bone.

                    Bigger

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: Mirror and Palpation Tests

                      I was thinking just a small amount of weight might better show the exit point, especially for guys who are growers and don't get a lot of hang when flaccid. Coupled with a bigger than normal gut/fat pad, I can see the mirror test being difficult.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: Mirror and Palpation Tests

                        RB,

                        You could be right. But I do not see how pulling the shaft down could give an accurate shaft exit point.

                        BTW, thanks for the anatomy work. Great job.

                        Bigger

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: Mirror and Palpation Tests

                          I'm thinking just enough weigh to cause the shaft to hang, but it should still hang from where it's attached to the pubic bone, which is what is trying to be determined.

                          Next time I hook up, I'll try it and see if it works.

                          Oh, and you're welcome

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: Mirror and Palpation Tests

                            I used a 2.5# weight. I think it would help. My exit point is pretty low though, so who knows. Worth a shot if someone is struggling.

                            Bib, what are your thoughts on the effectiveness of the mirror test for someone who's already lowered their LOT to less than 7, and has since raised their LOT through tunica work? We aren't really moving the exit point up even though the LOT changes, it would seem the ligs again resisting the tug back results more from their being pulled out as the tunica lengthens, not necessarily up along the pubic bone.

                            Right?

                            Would this make the mirror test only relevant for beginners or relative newbies?

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: Mirror and Palpation Tests

                              RB,

                              Great question. And I am glad you asked.

                              I have not finished what I am working on, but I can tell you that the exit point, along with LOT, and everything else, does rise as the inner tunica is lengthened.

                              i noticed this while working with the fulcrum I made that mimics the RSDT fulcrum. There is only so much I can do, because of the restrictions placed on me concerning further gains by my wife.

                              After working with the fulcrum for months, even wtih very little concentrated work, sets spread out over time, my LOT rose. Also, I know very well what my unit looks like in the mirror; how it should hang, wrapped or unwrapped, erect, etc.

                              Along with the rise in LOT, I noticed one day when looking in the mirror from the side while wrapped, that I did not hang as before the fulcrum work. I was noticably higher. So I did the straight on mirror test, and where before the fulcrum work I was below the junction of my legs to body, I am now about even. At this moment, I know that I have more potential for gains from lig stretch. Just cannot do it.

                              It makes sense. The inner penis is substantial, and as most guys note, thicker than the outer shaft. Even when flaccid, this tissue has substance, and will have a outward force. The ligs, in whatever state, will resist this force. If the ligs are longer from lower angle hanging, then as the inner penis becomes longer, rather than the inner penis forcing outward, the ligs will resist and pull the exit point upward. Outward force, no lower restriction, but an upper restriction, the outer shaft will go up.

                              It really is a great physics model, ligs to outer penis and inner penis.

                              Now, I do agree that the test is probably more valuable for a newbie. Once a guy has changed his LOT down and possibly up, he knows what he is doing. But he might be able to see some difference from the various forms of work. After a good while of fulcrum hanging, he should be able to notice if the ligs come into play, become taught while hanging. Then he should switch back to lower angle hanging for a while.

                              Great question.

                              Bigger

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: Mirror and Palpation Tests

                                RB,

                                I meant to also say that the outward force from a longer inner penis is not going to be as dramatic as high tight ligs in pulling the exit point up.

                                This is because the amount of inner penis which could affect the exit point is limited.

                                Let's say you had slightly elongated ligs. Then you did extensive fulcrum hanging. You could not, for example, lengthen your inner penis six inches, without engaging the ligs, lengthening them also. If you could lengthen the inner penis substantially without affecting the ligs, then the exit point would rise dramatically.

                                So, in this regard you are correct about the relative importance of the mirror test to experienced guys.

                                Bigger

                                Comment

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