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  • Bib's LOT Theory : A must-read

    The following post, and theory, was written by Bib and posted on another forum. I am posting it here to save him a little time, and think anyone who hangs should at least read it. It is not fact - but rather a theory. If you are like many others, you will recognize the merit it contains. The voice of the text is that of Bigger.
    ************************************************** ***********
    Bib's LOT Theory
    A few guys have written asking me about the theory. I thought it was posted here, but I cannot find it. So, I cut and pasted it.

    There has been a bunch of other threads here, and at Thunders about the theory, so this is by no means the end all of the explanations. Further, I did not do a very good job of explaining it, so you are welcome to ask questions.

    ***************************

    Theory:

    The shorter, tighter or higher the ligs, the higher the angle required to lose ‘tugback’ when stretching the penis and kegaling at the same time.

    The shorter, tighter, or higher the ligs, the more ‘inner’ penis, and the more quick, easy gains which are possible, and possibly the more total gains which are possible as the ligs are lengthened.

    The longer, looser, or lower the ligs, the less ‘inner’ penis, and the harder the gains and possibly less total gains which are possible.

    The longer time spent PEing, the lower the angle at which tugback is lost due to a lengthening of the ligs. This assumes PE is performed at lower angles, at least somewhat, by all subjects.

    The less time spent PEing, the higher the angle at which tugback is lost because ligs have not been stretched.

    For those with shorter, tighter, or higher ligs, a lengthening of the ligs correlates with a lowering of angle of tugback loss, and an increase in penis length.

    Assumption: Those with more length gains started with shorter, tighter, or higher ligs and their ligs have been lengthened through PE. It would be nice to have starting measures for tugback loss and erection angle, but I think the stats speak to this problem. I know that for myself, before PE, my tugback loss angle HAD to be extremely high. If you started with high ligs, and you have made good gains, you will probably recognize that your entire package is now lower, indicating an increase in the length of your ligs.

    As concerns erection angle vs. tugback angle loss, it must be realized that other factors affect erection angle other than lig tightness such as erection strength and tunica shape.

    Analysis

    I used Excel to create a table of data. Then, I correlated the variables in pairs. The only calculation made from the data was gains per month. The variable, “loss of tugback” is abbreviated as LOT. It is measured from 12:00 or straight up, to 6:00 or straight down.

    The following is a rough analysis of the data given by the above 24 guys. With only 24 subjects, the results cannot be deemed to be conclusive, but I think it points to some definite tendencies and some rough guidelines can be produced. Hopefully, we can get some more participants to improve the reliability of the theories.

    I will look at the data in three groupings and discuss the relevant correlations: Total participants, guys over and under 1.5 inches of total gains, and guys over and under 0.083 inches gained per month.

    Total data:

    Only minor correlations can be found when looking at all participants. Apart from things that are obvious, such as total length being highly correlated with gains (0.875), there is only one relevant correlation. That is as time goes on, gains per month goes down, correlation= -0.605.

    There are minor negative correlations between LOT and total length (-0.27), and LOT and gains (-0.24). This is a result of big gainers lowering the LOT as gains and therefore total length increase.

    There is also a slight correlation between LOT and erect angle (0.22). The lower the angle of LOT the more lig stretch and gains. The looser ligs result is a slightly lower erection angle. This shows up in the amount of time spent PEing and erection angle with a (-0.356) correlation.

    Gains:

    It has been obvious to me for a long time that physiology has a lot to do with gains. I think this can be examined by everyone, and especially new guys by testing the LOT and comparing to others. So, in this context, I wanted to look at two groups, high gainers and low gainers. For this analysis, I divided the two groups by the median total gain which is 1.325 inches. This gave two equal groups. The high gain group contains RB, DLD, Avocet, Dino, SWM, Goingdeep, toid, dasheming, Hobby, luv, Pinocchio, and me. The low group contains restnom, Growingup, WestLA, Long2Blong, Realpuffus, Phat, Johan, SS4, Sappy, j384, Penismith, and mike2002.

    Things become somewhat clearer when looking at the data in this manner. It becomes obvious that for the high group, as LOT goes down, gains (-0.768) and total length (-0.712) go up. For the low group, there was NO correlation.

    Truly interesting is the correlation between erection angle and LOT. For the high group, as LOT goes down, erection angle goes up (-.044). For the low group, as LOT goes up, erection angle goes up (.053)!!

    Also, the relation to time and gains per month is clear; (-0.73) for the high group, and (-0.63) for the low group.

    Gains per month:

    The next step was to further group the data by dividing into two groups according to gains per month. This gives the ability to see the problem with hard gainers.

    The median of the 24 subjects is 0.083inches per month. Those in the higher group are; RB, DLD, avocet, Growingup, WestLA, Long2Blong, goingdeep, toid, dasheming, Hobby, luv, and me. Those in the lower group are; retsnom, Realpuffus, Dino, SWM, Phat, Johan, SS4, Sappy, Pinocchio, j384, Penismith, and mike2002.

    These groupings revealed some interesting results.

    For the high group, as total length is increased, LOT is decreased (-0.75). For the low group, there is a small POSITIVE correlation (0.19). Also, for the high group, as gains go up, LOT goes down (-0.756). For the low group, as gains go up, LOT also goes UP (0.433)!

    For the high group, as time goes up, LOT goes down ((-0.72). For the low group, there is again a small POSITIVE correlation (0.25).

    Summary:

    So what does all this mean? I think the best way to examine it is to look at individuals. First, as I said before, the assumption is that big gainers started with high tight ligs. That was my situation. Looking at the big gainers, the more gains, the lower the LOT. This seems to firmly indicate a lengthening of the ligs allowing a significant portion of penis to be revealed. The biggest gainer, DLD has the lowest LOT, 6:00. RB, avocet, toid, and I are tied for 2nd at 7:00. While some of us could profit from more lig work, the majority of future gains will come from tunica stretch. We have some long ligs.

    The other members of the high group, while getting good gains, probably mostly from lig stretch, still have good potential for gains in the ligs, either hanging or stretching at lower angles. Dasheming has already gained 1.75”, but has a LOT of 9. He might be a big’un some day.

    Gains problems in the lower group are evident. The problems of Johan, Sappy, SS4, j384, Penismith, and mike2002 are fairly plain. They all have very low LOTs, but not much gain to show for it. Their LOTs are as low as the big gainers. To me, this indicates that they ALWAYS had a low exit point and therefore little inner penis. They did not have the opportunity to get any easy gains. Through hard work, several of them have made gains over time, probably mainly through tunica stretch. They should concentrate on working the upper angles of hang or stretch. Also, DLD twists and upward lateral stretches might be the ticket. With consistent dedicated stress, at the upper angle, they should make progress.

    Retsnom, Realpuffas, Dino, SWM, Phat, and Pinocchio are a little different. They do have potential in their ligs to gain more length from lig stretch, even though some of them have already gained pretty well. But they have had to put in a tremendous amount of time and effort to get those gains, probably because of some really genetically tough collagenous tissues. Sometimes, that is just the way it is. The only thing to do is try to find ways to increase the stress, still working lower angles, and they should be able to get plenty more gains.

    I had a lot of other crap I wanted to write about, but damned if I can remember what they were. Questions would be appreciated.

    Bigger

    How to determine LOT

    ICM,

    >For working out my LOT, am I looking for a complete loss of tugback, or just heavily reduced / weak? I would be happy to have a high LOT, and I´d say that mine must be at about 8:00 currently, but there is still a minor amount of tugback at that level. It´s small, but there. In fact, there´s a tiny amount till very far down. <

    It could be two things. First, you could have a range of angles where the ligs and tunica are taking various amount of the stress. This would cause a gradual loss of tugback. Or second, you might be going by feel instead of seeing the loss of tugback. Do not judge by the flex of the PC, but rather by seeing the actual tugback.

    >I´ve not done much stretching, and I´m only two weeks into my routine, so I wouldn´t expect to have a very low LOT.<

    This is not correct. Some guys start out with low LOTs and some start out with high LOTs. The guys that have gained a lot and are low, probably had high LOTs to begin with. That is the theory. An LOT of 8:00 is medium.

    >What´s the verdict? Does the tugback have to be gone completely?<

    When the actual, visual tugback is gone completely, the ligs are taking all the stress.

    Bigger

    *******************************
    While doing the LOT test, many guys have reported movement at the top base of their penis while doing the kegal. I think for most, if not all, this is the LIGAMENTS reacting to the kegal.

    When you begin to see the Loss OF Tugback of the head, and you see a movement in your base, that should definitively be your LOT. That is the exact point that your PC no longer affects the outer shaft, and the energy from the PC is affecting the ligs.

    I think the reason some guys are having problems finding their exact LOT, is because they are getting some head movement, because the PC is working through the ligs, and the ligs are pulling back the outer shaft slightly.

    Don't make it too difficult. If the head does not pull back much, and the base is 'flexing', that is your LOT.

    Bigger
    ******************************
    Let me be a little clearer. On some thread, I said that when you see a leesening of the tugback, it might be because the ligs and shaft are both taking some of the tugback from the PC. This could be valid. But if the base is flexing, the ligs, and the head is showing a slight tugback, then it is probably the tugback being transferred through the ligs to the outer shaft without the outer shaft being affected by the inner shaft. Then, your LOT would be where the tugback begins to be reduced, and the base flexes.

    Does this make sense, or do I need to explain it better.

    One of you technical writers need to work on this.

    Bigger

    *********************************

    >So you're saying that the LOT is now the point at which you NO LONGER see the head get pulled back by the kegel, and just the base? <

    As you move the angle of stretch down, and continually kegal every few seconds, the point at which you no longer see a tugback is your LOT. If you see very little tugback, but rather a flex at the base, that is probably your LOT. IOW, disregard a small tugback caused by the ligs flexing.

    >I guess that puts me at 8 or closer to a 9 o'clock LOT instead of my previously reported 6 o'clock.<

    That is good.

    >This doesn't make sense to me. Isn't the grip that a person holds their head with while stretching out the dick (to check the LOT) a variable for whether or not they'll see a tug back up at the head? <

    Only if you stretched soooo hard that the PC muscle cannot pull anything back at any angle. Or if you did not stretch hardly at all. Just pull out by the head enough to extend to about the maximum without straining too hard.

    >I really hope I didn't waste all those weeks of only doing tunica stretches for nothing...<

    I doubt any type of upward stretching would be a waste. If anything, you possibly raised your LOT.

    Bigger
    *************************************
    >Okay. What if your LOT is 6 o'clock. Do you really think it's a waste to keep stretching downwards? Because even if the ligs are no longer able to lengthen any further, wouldn't you still be stretching something?<

    I do not think it would be a complete waste, simply less efficient. If you are stretching down, and engaging the ligs, with a low LOT, and no potential for gains from lig stretch, the the stress taken by the ligs will naturally detract from or eliminate the stress imposed on the inner tunica. IOW, you could possibly consistantly stretch at an angle that would not give any gains from lig stretch, and yet not impact the inner tunica at all. Of course, you would still be stretching the outer tunica. Sabe?

    >I also have this nagging feeling that my LOT has always been 6 o'clock. Now if you're theory is correct, then that's not possible right?<

    Sure it is. You can be born that way. Many guys have naturally low LOTs.

    >Isn't it just natural to lose tugback stretching straight downwards?<

    Sure. For every single guy, at some point the ligs engage, and take the stress. It is the point that the ligs engage that is important.
    **********************************

    Hope this helps,

    Bigger

  • #2
    Gold,

    Really good to see you here, and many thanks for posting that information. I went through my hard drive recently, to find stuff to put on this forum. For some reason, I can not find this kind of thing. I KNOW it is there, but really hidden well.

    Also, I need to post the palpation test and mirror test, which I also cannot find. If I forget, remind me to write those up.

    Thanks again,

    Bigger

    Comment


    • #3
      Gold,

      If you get a minute, would you please provide a link to this thread on Thunders? Even though it is my stuff, I quoted other guys in there, and we need to give credit where due.

      Many thanks,

      Bigger

      Comment


      • #4
        I sure can:

        http://www.thundersplace.org/forum/show ... LOT+theory

        Comment


        • #5
          Gold,

          Thanks very much.

          Bigger

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Bib
            Also, I need to post the palpation test and mirror test, which I also cannot find. If I forget, remind me to write those up.

            Thanks again,

            Bigger
            You're reminded. I can't wait to hear about these.
            Cj in AR

            Comment


            • #7
              CJ,

              They were posted on MOS, and I think on Thunders as well. But I cannot find them on my hard drive as of now.

              Please hold on a bit, and I will write them up.

              Bigger

              Comment


              • #8
                this is all a bit confusing for me, but my erection angle is at about 8:00 and sticks straight out when i pc flex 9:00 (not sure if that makes sense)
                would that mean i will be a hard gainer? im only looking to gain 1.5 inches so should i have enough to still stretch out? also is there ways to fix penile curvature? i have a slight arc with the middle of the shaft higher than the front and the back of the penis, it seems i would get a slight gain from working on that. Im sorry if my posts are a bit annoying but i have trouble understanding right away lol, thanks.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Bigger,
                  this is all very confusing to me, as well. How do I know if I have a loss of tug? All I can feel when I am hanging is discomfort down there...sometimes a little, sometimes a lot(given the weight amount). As per Omega's post, if it "does" have anything to do with it, I am at 90 degrees erect, and about 95-100 when PC flexed.
                  Started-FL-3.5,EL-5.75,EG-5.25
                  Current- FL=5
                  SideBPEL=7.75-8
                  TopBPEL=6.50-7
                  Side BPFSL=7.75-8.25

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    omega,

                    >this is all a bit confusing for me, but my erection angle is at about 8:00 and sticks straight out when i pc flex 9:00 (not sure if that makes sense)
                    would that mean i will be a hard gainer?<

                    No. Why would you think so? EA has nothing to do with LOT.

                    >im only looking to gain 1.5 inches so should i have enough to still stretch out?<

                    I do not understand the question.

                    >also is there ways to fix penile curvature? i have a slight arc with the middle of the shaft higher than the front and the back of the penis, it seems i would get a slight gain from working on that. Im sorry if my posts are a bit annoying but i have trouble understanding right away lol, thanks.<

                    Some guys have reported straightening of curves of all types, with corresponding gains.

                    JH,

                    >this is all very confusing to me, as well. How do I know if I have a loss of tug?<

                    If when you PC flex, kegal, you do not SEE a tugback, that is the angle at which your ligs take the force of the stretch.

                    >All I can feel when I am hanging is discomfort down there...sometimes a little, sometimes a lot(given the weight amount).<

                    I do not know what this means, what relation it has to the LOT test.

                    >As per Omega's post, if it "does" have anything to do with it, I am at 90 degrees erect, and about 95-100 when PC flexed.<

                    It does not. The LOT test is performed while flaccid.

                    Bigger

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Bib
                      If when you PC flex, kegal, you do not SEE a tugback, that is the angle at which your ligs take the force of the stretch.
                      I still do not understand. What do you mean "SEE" a tugback. When I kegal with weights on, I can feel the weights....just like I were lifting weights or something like that, and can not do as many kegals because of that. I'm sure that still has nothing to do with LOT, I don't know?? I will just wait until I measure again to see if I can record a gain. I think March 17 is when I said the next measurment will take place-as per what you said about giving it 6 weeks of only BTC stretching.

                      What have you found were your best ADS techniques/systems. Would you suggest "against" getting PE weights? And how long is the suggested time to do ADS, since wanting to be in the extended state while healing-i.e:how long should it take to heal in extended state so your dick ligs don't retract back
                      Started-FL-3.5,EL-5.75,EG-5.25
                      Current- FL=5
                      SideBPEL=7.75-8
                      TopBPEL=6.50-7
                      Side BPFSL=7.75-8.25

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        JH,

                        >I still do not understand. What do you mean "SEE" a tugback. When I kegal with weights on, I can feel the weights....just like I were lifting weights or something like that, and can not do as many kegals because of that. I'm sure that still has nothing to do with LOT, I don't know??<

                        No. When performing the LOT test, you are not hanging. Just stretching by hand, starting at the 12:00 angle, and moving down the clock face toward six. When you can no longer see a tugback, that is your LOT.


                        >I will just wait until I measure again to see if I can record a gain. I think March 17 is when I said the next measurment will take place-as per what you said about giving it 6 weeks of only BTC stretching.<

                        Six weeks of consistant, dedicated BTC. Not learning to hang, etc.

                        >What have you found were your best ADS techniques/systems.<

                        The only thing I used was wrapping.

                        >Would you suggest "against" getting PE weights?<

                        I have no experience whatsoever with PE weights, so I cannot judge.

                        >And how long is the suggested time to do ADS, since wanting to be in the extended state while healing-i.e:how long should it take to heal in extended state so your dick ligs don't retract back<

                        It depends on how tough the ADS is on you. For example, if I stayed wrapped too long, I would soon get fluid buildup, which could irritate during my next hanging session. If your ADS does not bother you at all, then leave it as long as you wish.

                        Bigger

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Bib
                          >I will just wait until I measure again to see if I can record a gain. I think March 17 is when I said the next measurment will take place-as per what you said about giving it 6 weeks of only BTC stretching.<

                          Six weeks of consistant, dedicated BTC. Not learning to hang, etc.
                          I thought you told me, in an earlier post, to give it 6 weeks of BTC only to see if I gain. ..."Not learning to hang, etc." What do you mean? I asked you if I should do the OTS hang, and you said to give BTC 6 weeks. Maybe I'm understanding you wrong?
                          Started-FL-3.5,EL-5.75,EG-5.25
                          Current- FL=5
                          SideBPEL=7.75-8
                          TopBPEL=6.50-7
                          Side BPFSL=7.75-8.25

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            JH,

                            >I thought you told me, in an earlier post, to give it 6 weeks of BTC only to see if I gain. ..."Not learning to hang, etc." What do you mean? I asked you if I should do the OTS hang, and you said to give BTC 6 weeks. Maybe I'm understanding you wrong?<

                            I simply meant that it requires six solid weeks, reaching fatigue, reducing weights as needed, to be sure whether an angle is effective or not. It seems to me that you have only been reaching fatigue for a short while.

                            Bigger

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Bib
                              It seems to me that you have only been reaching fatigue for a short while.
                              I don't know...I think I may have been reaching fatigue the whole time. I tend to over-do it alot with things like this in my life, and I really didn't know what the correct definition of fatigue was for hanging. I have definitely "always" felt the stretch when hanging, and my dick "does" feel the effects throughout the day-i.e:that "gotcha" zap you spoke about earlier. I think I may have been hanging too much weight in the beggining, and what I thought was fatigue, might be beyond what most hangers consider fatigue. When I have started out at the lower weights,say 10lbs, I definitely feel the fatigue around 7-10 minutes into the hang, but definitely feeling the hang the whole time. And when I get home from work at night,sometimes I start at 7.5 and can't last the whole hang. This is after hanging 3 sets in the morning. I'd say my weight range lately has been 11.25-12.5 for the first day's hang, and then going down the next two sets. And then try again at night at whatever weight I "can" handle...usually a lower one.
                              BTW, has there ever been any report of prostate cancer or other type of illness as a result(or what they thought was a resut) of hanging? I read somewhere tonight, either here or thunders, about a guy that had prostate cancer(not from hanging) and was getting treatment for it. He was asking about the affects hanging would be while getting treated for prostate cancer. It might sound absurd to be worried about something like this, but I just want to be on the safe side.
                              Started-FL-3.5,EL-5.75,EG-5.25
                              Current- FL=5
                              SideBPEL=7.75-8
                              TopBPEL=6.50-7
                              Side BPFSL=7.75-8.25

                              Comment

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